What is Venom hiding from Eddie?

Everything You Need to Know About Carnage, the Villain in the Venom Post-Credits Scene

Venom may be an anti-hero, the sort of scary monster who only eats bad guys. But there are plenty of true villains in the Venom cinematic universe. Venom fought riot in his onscreen debut. And a teaser mid-way through the credits for the movie hinted that Venom would have to fight another Spider-Man universe baddie in a sequel.

Fans who stuck around through the Venom credits scene saw Tom Hardy’s Eddie Brock ride his motorcycle up to San Quentin prison for an interview with a prisoner. This is possibly the big exclusive he mentioned to his ex-fiancée Anne (Michelle Williams) at the end of the movie.

There, Brock meets a red-headed Woody Harrelson, who a guard helpfully informs the audience is a serial killer named Cletus Kasady.

Who is Cletus Kasady?

Kasady is an evildoer in the Spider-Man comics. As in the comic books, the movie version of Kasday passes the time in prison by writing on the walls of his cell with his own blood. Kasady warns Brock, “When I get out of here, there’s going to be carnage.” Though Kasady may not know it yet, Carnage will soon become his super-villain moniker.

Who is Carnage?

Spider-Man fans might recognize the name: Carnage is one of the main villains to face off with Spidey (and the Avengers). In the comics, Cletus bonds with a symbiote named Carnage, just as Eddie bonded with a symbiote named Venom, to disastrous effects. A serial killer with super powers? That sounds pretty horrifying.

Cletus and Carnage’s union gets a bit complicated. In the comics, Eddie Brock does a stint in prison and his cellmate is none other than Cletus Kasady. While in prison, Venom produces an offspring named Carnage. (He reproduces asexually, in case you were wondering.) Venom doesn’t tell Eddie about it, and Venom and Eddie escape prison. Once they’re gone, Carnage bonds with Cletus.

It’s unclear whether Carnage and Cletus have already bonded when Eddie meets Cletus in the Venom film. It’s possible that Venom will spawn an offspring during Eddie’s visit to the prison, which will later worm its way into Cletus’ cell.

Marvel

Venom vs Carnage

Carnage is more powerful than Venom—in part because he has a psychopathic serial killer as a host rather than just an intrepid journalist. In the comics, Spider-Man convinces Venom to form an uneasy alliance in order to hunt down Carnage.

If Venom gets a sequel—which will depend on whether the movie can overcome poor critical reviews and still dominate the box office—Carnage will probably be the main baddie.

How does Spider-Man fit in?

It’s unlikely that Venom will get Peter Parker’s help in taking down Carnage. Marvel Studios (which is owned by Disney) and Sony struck up a deal that allows them to share the rights to Spider-Man. Per those terms, the two studios can co-create Spidey solo movies starring Tom Holland (like Spider-Man: Homecoming and its upcoming sequel, Spider-Man: Far From Home). Marvel Studios can also use Holland in its films like Captain America: Civil War and Avengers: Infinity War.

Meanwhile, Sony will build out the Spider-Man universe with movies like Venom and Black Cat. But for now that world is one bereft of its central character. The heads of both studios have made it clear that Holland’s Spidey won’t be appearing in Sony’s growing slate of movies. Spider-Man was never even mentioned in Venom. In fact, Venom’s cinematic world may be one without superheroes at all, just super-powered parasites.

Given that Carnage proves more powerful than even Riot in the comic books, Venom will have his hands full fighting Carnage on his own in the second film. A brief scene in Venom suggested that Anne can also carry a symbiote without meeting dire consequences. Perhaps Venom can reproduce again, Anne could pair with the new symbiote and the erstwhile couple could team up to defeat Carnage.

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Write to Eliana Dockterman at eliana.dockterman@time.com.

Venom: Let There Be Carnage Credit Scene Explained: It’s Madness, Eddie

«Venom: Let There Be Carnage» has finally arrived in theaters after roughly a year of delays. As with many superhero flicks of the modern era, it also brings with it a post-credits scene. Sometimes these scenes are just having a little bit of fun. Other times they bring with them universe-shattering consequences and reveals. In the case of this particular movie, it’s the latter option. So buckle up, because we’ve got an awful lot to talk about.

Warning: major spoilers ahead for «Venom: Let There Be Carnage.» Proceed with caution.

The Lead Up to the Post-Credits Scene

The ending of «Venom: Let There Be Carnage» sees Eddie/Venom (Tom Hardy) defeat Cletus/Carnage (Woody Harrelson) in a deadly battle at the cathedral. Unfortunately for Eddie and Venom, they have caused a bit too much chaos and must flee the city. They bid farewell to Anne (Michelle Williams) and demonstrate a little bit of growth by wishing Dan (Reid Scott) well. Eddie and Venom share a lovely moment together on a park bench before deciding to stick together. They truly do deserve one another.

The last thing we see before the credits roll is Eddie and his symbiote companion hanging out on the beach in an undisclosed location. They exchange an awkward love for one another, the camera pulls away, and that’s that. Or so we think. But this movie has saved its biggest surprise for last, and it’s one of the most consequential moments in a superhero movie to come along in some time.

What Happens In the Post-Credits Scene?

Put on your tinfoil hat and get yourself in a calm place because things are about to get wild. After the animated portion of the credits concludes, we catch back up with Venom and Eddie in their rather nice hotel room on the beach. The two are having a playful argument of sorts about how Venom has vast knowledge from being part of an alien hive mind, while Eddie is begging to get just a taste of that knowledge. Venom relents, and things start to go haywire. The TV gets static-y and strange. The room doesn’t feel right. At first, it seems like this is a result of Venom sharing some of that knowledge with Eddie. But when Venom declares that the madness going on has nothing to do with him, we know something big is up. Then a golden shockwave blasts through the room, and this franchise as we know it, and indeed the entirety of the onscreen Marvel universe (or should we say multiverse) has changed forever.

When Eddie looks at the TV again, we see none other than J. Jonah Jameson, as portrayed by J.K. Simmons, rambling away on his TV show, «The Daily Bugle.» But this is not the version from Sam Raimi’s «Spider-Man» movies, mind you. Rather, this is the version of the character we were treated to in the bombshell post-credits scene attached to «Spider-Man: Far From Home» in which Jameson reveals that Tom Holland’s Peter Parker is the one behind Spidey’s mask. And then, sure enough, we see footage of a mask-less Spider-Man on-screen as Jameson bemoans him as a menace. Eddie watches on in confusion/wonder and Venom says «That guy» while licking the TV, perhaps hinting at some sort of complicated relationship, or just a tease of what’s to come.

Then another man walks out of the bathroom, asking what Eddie is doing in his room. Clearly, all is not well in the multiverse. Madness, this way lies.

What Does This Mean for the Future of Venom?

Up to this point, the «Venom» movies have existed completely apart from the Marvel Cinematic Universe and Tom Holland’s Spider-Man. This is by design. Sony owns the movie rights to the «Spider-Man» franchise and all of its surrounding characters. Sony opted to make spin-off movies using what they had, crafting their own universe while Spidey was off playing with the Avengers. That has all changed. Perhaps Powerman 5000 put it best when they once sang «This is what it’s like when worlds collide.»

Tom Hardy’s Eddie Brock/Venom is now poised to meet up with Spider-Man and, perhaps, other characters from the MCU. How, or when, this will happen remains to be seen. Though it is worth mentioning that the golden ring we see in the post-credits sequence looks an awful lot like the one Doctor Strange creates in the «Spider-Man: No Way Home» trailer that rips open the multiverse. These two events may well be connected. In any event, it’s finally happening, people. We are in full-on multiverse mode and straight-up anything is possible at this point. So speculating any further without additional information would be useless, fun as it may be.

What Does This Mean for the MCU?

On the flip side, the MCU is now in for one heck of a shake-up. This now means that seemingly any character from Sony’s universe can collide with characters in the MCU (provided that Sony and Disney continue to have a working relationship and care to share these characters). Venom could meet Doctor Strange. Jared Leto’s Morbius could do science things with Mark Ruffalo’s Hulk. Who knows? It’s kind of all on the table now. Does this mean that the «Venom» movies now exist in the MCU? Not exactly, as the way the multiverse works hasn’t been fully explained just yet. Though with «Spider-Man: No Way Home» arriving in December and «Doctor Strange: In the Multiverse of Madness» hitting theaters in March of next year, we’re sure to learn a lot more soon enough. Madness is on the horizon indeed, dear reader.

Venom 2 Post-Credits Scene Explained: Why Did [SPOILERS] Show Up?

Venom: Let There Be Carnage is now out in theaters after having switched release dates more than once. The film is getting mixed reviews, but at least the important part, Venom and Carnage’s showdown, is great.

Cletus Kasady fighting Eddie Brock was certainly something to witness, as the two Symbiotes clashed in a far more visually pleasing way than Venom’s sloppy Riot fight.

Coming out of the movie, however, there’s something that will all but certainly overshadow any talk about the pre-criedts portion of the actual movie: Venom is now officially in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

That Guy

After the credits roll, fans are treated to a visual of Eddie and Venom both watching a soap opera on television. They start to discuss when the topic of having an insane secret comes up.

Venom mysteriously adds “we all have a past, Eddie,” to which Eddie tepidly responds, asking if “[he’s] hiding stuff from [him].”

This is when the symbiote goes and drops a bombshell:

“80 billion years of hive knowledge, across universes, would explode your tiny little brain.”

Up until this point, that concept had yet to be introduced or even alluded to in the films. Venom continues on though, giving a tantalizing tease, telling Brock to “let [him] give [Eddie] a taste:”

“Well, let me give you a taste then. Just the smallest fraction of the things we symbiotes have experienced.”

Eddie agrees, and just as Venom says “Ready Eddie?”, right when he seemingly begins his demonstration, things start to go haywire.

A bright yellow light shines from outside, things are phasing in and out, and everything is changing. Seconds later the two find themselves in an entirely different hotel room.

Just as Venom declares that “it wasn’t [him],” attention is drawn to the television: J. Jonah Jameson is on television, with his Daily Bugle show, reporting on Tom Holland’s Peter Parker, and how he’s the masked vigilante Spider-Man.

Silently, and fairly quickly, this draws the attention of Venom. He moves up to the screen, acknowledges Spider-Man as “this guy…,” and then licks the screen showing Parker’s face.

Does Venom Know of Spider-Man?

Upon closer examination of the scene, it certainly seems like Venom, the symbiote, knows of Spider-Man. Maybe not Tom Holland’s specific Spider-Man, but of one somewhere in the Multiverse.

One might immediately think, ‘wait a second, Venom Has never run into Spider-Man. It would’ve been mentioned.’—and all of that is true. But note how, suspiciously, Venom happens to mention “80 billion years of hive knowledge, across universes,” moments before the two are seemingly thrown into the MCU.

So, while yes, this Venom hasn’t run into Spider-Man himself, the scene strongly alludes to the idea that he has knowledge of his existence through some other symbiote in the multiverse.

An example of which symbiote that may be, is Topher Grace’s encounter with the alien parasite Venom in Spider-Man 3. While Topher Grace recently joked about being in Spider-Man: No Way Home, this connection with the symbiote hive mind could be Sony’s way of connecting Grace’s role without having to bring back the highly despised version of the character.

Of course, the knowledge could always simply come from one of the many multiverses offscreen; of Venom and Spider-Man interactions that have never made it into any film or television series.

It will be an interesting concept to explore. With Venom potentially having some knowledge of the webslinger, their dynamic becomes dramatically more exciting. Prior to the after-credits scene, it was hard to imagine how the two would work on screen together.

For one, they didn’t share any experience or knowledge of each other, which immediately erases most of what makes their dynamic in the comics amazing. But now, Sony is trying to use the multiverse to inject a little more into the character.

Eddie and Venom, on face value, as Venom: Let There Be Carnage finished, would have no reason to go against Spider-Man. Besides the fact that eating criminals’ heads may be a downer for Parker, Eddie and Venom’s intentions look to be leaning more towards being a hero, though becoming an anti-hero is the likely outcome.

However, if that hivemind knowledge does hold information about Peter Parker (and somehow makes it all personal for the symbiote which audiences have been following), then it all might just work. Maybe.

The Sinister Six Gets Venomous?

So what’s the next logical step? The obvious answer is Spider-Man: No Way Home. The film is already confirmed to bring in past Spider-Man villains from alternate universes—just look at Alfred Molina’s Doc Ock for proof.

The inciting incident is likely one of the trailer’s biggest moments: Doctor Strange casting a spell to make the world forget that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. Clearly, things go wrong, and there are blinding lights and weird magic flashes—sound familiar?

This moment is likely what audiences saw when Tom Hardy’s Eddie and Venom are shifting between universes. The bigger question is why them?

As previously theorized, all the villains have deep connections to Peter Parker and Spider-Man. So when the spell was cast, it was focusing on Parker’s identity as the wallcrawling hero—then it went south, and in doing so, seemingly yanked people connected to the identity the spell was trying to erase.

But, Eddie and Venom don’t have the same connection that villains like Green Goblin, Doc Ock, or Electro have. However, as mentioned above, the flashing lights and everything happened for Hardy’s Venom the moment he went to tap into his hivemind knowledge—the very same one that spans universes and likely has connections to Peter Parker.

This chain of events would add Venom to the massive list of villains set to appear in the film. In the first trailer alone, Doc Ock is front and center, Lizard can be seen In the shadows, and there are overt hints to Green Goblin, Electro, and Sandman. That’s five villains—which would make Venom the sixth, if he were to join the rest of these criminals; something which wouldn’t make much sense given the character development of the Eddie and Venom that killed Carnage.

Of course, that theoretical roster, for the hypothetical Sinister Six, is very much in flux for one key reason: Spider-Man: No Way Home is one huge mystery, and not everything is known about them.

Other villains who could take that sixth place besides Venom are the likes of The Amazing Spider-Man 2’s Rhino, or the MCU’s Vulture and/or Mysterio. The simple fact is that no one knows.

Seeing as there haven’t been many rumors to suggest that Tom Hardy’s Venom is set to appear in Spider-Man: No Way Home, there is another potential outcome: what if he isn’t in it at all?

Leftovers?

What if… Eddie and Venom aren’t dealt with until sometime after Spider-Man: Far From Home? They’d likely be saved for Venom 3 or another Sony-run project which would place the focus solely on Spider-Man’s first encounter with Tom Hardy’s symbiote.

Now would this be Spider-Man 4, or Venom 3? It could go either way, but don’t be surprised if Sony decides to do it all themselves and keep it all within the Venom franchise.

What would this movie look like? Obviously, the main draw would be the confrontation between Venom and Spider-Man, with the conflict likely riding on something personal within that hivemind knowledge of the symbiote.

There will probably be some big fan-driven moments, such as the symbiote attaching itself to Tom Holland’s Spider-Man, giving him his symbiote suit—which would be amazing. Story-wise, however, in this hypothetical situation that has been cooked up, that would likely only be for a moment or a scene.

It would have to get back to Venom sooner rather than later. How else would Tom Hardy’s Venom get that Spidey logo people have been clamoring for since the idea of a Venom film was conceived?

At the end of the day, the whole film will likely be broken down to both Spider-Man and Venom teaming up to fight a bigger evil. A trope for sure, but after all, this is Sony Pictures.

Say, remember that Carnage symbiote Venom ate? Well, what does eating a symbiote actually do? Seems like something it could easily get out of. There’s no bigger moneymaker for Sony than a final act of Spider-Man and Venom fighting a souped-up Carnage—one who would have tracked down a better match; maybe even the MCU’s Cletus Kasady.

There is a different route they could take if Sony didn’t want to re-do Carnage (but please do): Toxin. Toxin is the son of both Venom and Carnage, and with that crimson symbiote inside of Eddie’s internal friend, situations could easily occur which would result in the birth of a new symbiote.

In the comics, Toxin is attached to a man named Peter Milligan, a name that readers might recognize because Stephen Graham played him: the detective whom Shriek nearly deafened.

There’s an obvious problem though: Milligan is still in the Sonyverse, or the SSU, marinating in his completely nonsensical set-up for the future. So, if Toxin is adapted while Venom is in the MCU, the creatives involved would very likely end up doing an entirely original take—or simply stealing a different universe’s Milligan.

Odds are, the Carnage route may be the fan’s choice; so take note, Sony.

What About His Home-Verse

Finally, there is the big question: when, or will, Venom go home? Or is he to be an MCU mainstay? There are a lot of pieces at play on the board that makes these particular questions hard to pin down.

For one, Venom Let There Be Carnage director Andy Serkis has been pretty vocal recently about how Eddie will meet Spider-Man one day; and how there are a lot of other villains in Ravencroft for the symbiote to go up against. All of that was likely a poorly veiled attempt at hiding the after-credits scene reveal, but there still seems to be passion behind Serkis’ exploration of further villains.

Then there’s Spider-Man: No Way Home, which has dozens of rumors pointing to the return of past Spider-Men; could these returning faces be given a permanent home in Sony’s Spider-Man Universe—after all, it is kinda strange to have Spider-Man in the name, but not a wallcrawler in sight.

If the SSU gets its own Spider-Man, it would be common sense to bring Tom Hardy’s Venom home. There are other foils for the character which will already be in play, such as Jared Leto’s Morbius, or Aaron Taylor Johnson’s Kraven the Hunter.

With everything Sony has built, it is a little hard to believe that they would just throw Venom into the MCU and leave him there. It’s very likely Eddie’s multiversal trip is just a little excursion—which is ironic given where he arrived.

Aside from the characters in Sony‘s other films, the obvious answer to who would terrorize Eddie and Venom when they get back is more Symbiotes; it’s kinda their thing. They still have Toxin, Anti-Venom, Scream, Lasher, etc.

There are some other villains who are human, such as The Jury (think Spider-Slayers), Sin-Eater (a serial killer), and Jack O’ Lantern—all of whom don’t make much of a splash.

There is always Knull, the God of all Symbiotes—but that’s the big leagues to the extreme. It’s hard to see Sony getting there anytime soon. The scale of his villainy is far better suited for the MCU; If only they had their own Venom.

If Sony wants non-symbiotic villains for their star symbiote, then they might just have to settle for crossovers within their own films. Don’t be surprised if, in five years, their marquee film is Kraven hunting Venom.